Oh, and in case you missed all the hoopla, as an unofficial side event at the GCN Conference Alan Chambers was interviewed by Justin Lee as a part of a panel discussion on ex-gay ministries. Chambers is the president of Exodus International, the largest ex-gay organization in the United States. The video of the discussion is long (I was there to hear most of it in person), but the most significant statement Chambers made that evening was this:
The majority of people that I have met--and I would say "the majority" meaning 99.9% of them--have not experienced a change in their orientation, or have gotten to a place where they could say they could never be tempted, or are not tempted in some way, or experience some level of same sex attraction.
Quoth the President of the Largest Ex-gay Ministry in America. If you're worried I ripped it out of context, go to 1:09:44-1:10:09 and hear it for yourself. Then go tell your friends.
11 comments:
Wow! I didn't know that Exodus had "changed" in that way.
I only listened to the first four or five minutes and to a bit of the back and forth after the part you pointed out, and I want to hear the rest when I have time. BUt that bit is spectacular, and I hope lots of people will become aware of it.
Thanks for posting this.
Exodus has not changed. Alan Chambers is a chameleon who got backed into a corner by his geography and audience.
I am glad that these words came out of his mouth, but one merely has to listen to his explanation and caveats after the fact to his evangelical anti-gay supporters to understand that it is business as usual. He panders to his demographic in order to gain the maximum public exposure while collecting money to further his deplorable and spiritually homicidal ways.
His presence at the conference, the manner in which it was handled and the communication errors that preceded and occurred after this debacle have left me somewhat concerned, to put it mildly.
I truly feel for him and anyone who has ever and will ever come in contact with that organization that sells spiritual poison labeled as hope and healing medicine.
daemon
I don't know anything about the organization Exodus or Alan Chambers, but I do know this: the Bible says that homosexual behaviour is sinful. Even if the vast majority of homosexuals keep experiencing temptation to sin throughout their life, God's commands remain the same...
To learn more about my pov, please read my blog post "Homosexuality and the Bible":
http://toblerone-sk8erboy.blogspot.com/2011/12/homosexuality-and-bible.html
Toblerone: If you think that the people who read this blog are not familiar with your point of view, you are sadly mistaken. You would do well to do some listening for a change.
Jarred: There is a reason why I follow this blog :)
I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comment. I assure you that I am listening and remain open to other viewpoints. My voice isn't the only one, and not the most important one either, but I think it still deserves to be heard.
rebastoSeptuagint and the Greek word arsenokoites:
Lev 18:22 (Septuaginta)
kai meta arsenos ou koimeeteesee koiten gynaikos bdelugma gar estin
Lev 20:13 (Septuaginta)
kai os an koimeetee meta arsenos koiten gynaikos bdelugma epoieesan amphoteroi thanatousthoosan enokhoi eisin
Arsenos means male and koiten means bed. Lev 18:22 and 20:13 teach that a man cannot lie (sexual act) with another man as he lies with a woman. The origin of the word arsenokoites means homosexual activity and homosexual. Lev 18:22 and 20:13 prove very clearly that arsenos koiten means homosexuality sex, because the Jews scribes translated words' arsenos koiten to describe men who have sex with another men (homosexuality), which is a sin and against the will of God. Apostle Paul didn't make up the word arsenokoites, but it was already as the concept in the Old Testament, where it meant homosexuality.
It is very clear that the words' arsenos koiten meant homosexuality (man who had sex with another man) to Jews of the Old Covenant era. In the same way arsenokoites meant homosexuality (man who had sex with another man) to Jesus' disciples in the New Covenant era.
Jewish philosopher Philo lived in the same time as Jesus Christ and Philo has said that arsenokoites meant shrine prostitute (male temple prostitute), and not homosexual. Some people have made from this a conclusion that the word arsenokoites meant a male temple prostitute. Philo's interpretation was totally wrong, because the Bible proves this undisputedly and shows that Philo erred.
De 23:17 There shall be no whore (gedeshah) of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite (gadesh) of the sons of Israel.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie (shakab) with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie (shakab) with mankind, as he lieth (mishkab) with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Female temple prostitute is in Hebrew gedeshah and a male temple prostitute is gadesh. Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 are Hebrew words shakab (lie, lie down and lie sexually) and mishkab (bed, lying down, lying down sexually).
Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 doesn't use temple prostitute word, but words in which is denied that a man can't lie sexually with another man. Always when the Bible speaks for temple prostitutes, so the Bible uses words gedeshah and gadesh. If Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 told for temple prostitutes, so verses would mention them, but there isn't, because in those verses, the Bible forbids homosexuality. It is very clear and undisputable in the light of the testimony of the Bible, that arsenokoites means homosexuality.
The text of Septuagint translators disproves totally Philo's false interpretation:
De 23:17 ouk stai porne apo thugateron israel kai ouk estai porneuon apo uion israel ouk estai telesphoros apo thugateron israel kai ouk estai teliskomenos apo uion israel (Septuagint De 23:17)
In the text of Septuagint appear words porne and porneuon, which describe temple prostitutes. Jewish Bible translators' scholars didn't use the word arsenokoites to describe temple prostitute. The testimony of the Bible is unambiguous that arsenokoites doesn't mean temple prostitute, but homosexual.
Philo was pleased Greek, Stoic and Jewish philosophy, and for this reason he believed that literal interpretation of the Jewish Bible is stifled and too complex to be understood in literal human terms. Philo was a liberal theologian of his era, who distorted the teachings of the Bible by his own human wisdom. Philo's testimony from the word arsenokoites is invalid and clearly against the teaching of the Bible.
Arsenokoites meant exactly what Jewish Septuagint translators meant, in other words, it means homosexuality and practicing of homosexuality, which is a sin according to the word of God (Bible).
Reference; http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/homosexual.html
I think Exodus has its faults, but I know from experience that there is good in it. My hope is that they will all at Exodus stop preaching that sexuality can be changed, and will start more honestly promoting a life of obediance to God. A person's desires/temptations/orientation/etc. doesn't matter a bit. What does matter is whether or not a person is going to live God's way or their own way. Exodus could do far better simply helping people to live God's way and forgetting all that other.
My hope is that Chambers was signalling a more honest policy for Exodus going forward. Even if not, I think his statement stands for itself and is quite revealing.
man with desire: It's a little off topic, but I guess that's okay. I just wanted to point out that arsenokoites would mean "men who lie with other men" according to your argumentation, but it can't mean "homosexuality." "Homosexuality" in our English language means "attraction to people of the same sex." As you pointed out, koiten refers to the sex act, but someone can be sexually attracted to same-sex persons without actually lying with them.
Btw, where does Philo say that arsenokoites means temple prostitute? I had never heard of this before. Do you have the reference?
FWIW, the word "arsenokoitai" appears in the Sybelline oracles, where it clearly means "kidnapper".
And St. John the Faster in the 600's said "arsenokoitai" is something that some men even dare do to their wives. If this is so, then it cannot be homosexuality.
seems that anyone wants to know anything about the God's Gospel neither from Alan Chambers, neither when people or LGBT community have seen, the crazy christians who apparently say they were "exgay", and they are notice from the spiritual tortures they give them, and its pretty sad, to know they treat them that way, I'm christian and all who we really know the Gods word know they're wrong, cuz, well in this days the Gods church has been distorted, for those who try to change the God's word and dictate what seems the best, today the christians are dividing because of their sexual orientation, "straight"christians have a dictation different from "homosexual" christians, so waht's happening then,
I THINK THE MAIN MISTAKE FROM PEOPLE IS THAT EVERYONE THINKS THEY HAVE THE REASON, AND IT IS, IS UNBELIEVABLE TO KNOW HOW THE BIBLE HAS BEEN MANIPULATED OVER THE YEARS, FOR THOSE WHO SHIELD IN VERSES SAYING WHAT THEY SAY IS THE RIGHT, THEY THINK THEY ARE WISE IN THEIR OWN WORLD, BUT THE TRUE IS REVEALED TO THOSE WHO REALLY SEEK IT, SO IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT JUST FOR FIND A BIBLICAL VERSE, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT GOD HAS PLACED A BAND INTO YOUR EYES FOR YOUR FOOLISHNESS TO SAY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT.
THE TRUE GOSPEL IS LOSING
SEE YA DUDES SOON
The idea isn't surprising, but that this guy admitted it certainly is. Very interesting.
It's refereshing to see supportive comments come out of the Christian community like your blog. I'm an atheist, and the anti-gay Christians seem to have the loudest voice.
Homosexuality v. Christianity
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